10/9/2002 -- CertCities.com: Let's start with your recent decision to implement a recertification policy for Sun's certifications. Specifically with your Java titles, how did you come about this decision?

Rick Bunzel: One of the interesting things about Java is that it is open to the whims of the Java community process… standards that were in place previously change as the process makes those determinations, as they go through the approval process. So a certification that occurred two years ago may not be valid today because of that rate of change... We're trying to keep the program strong and ensure that the certifications that people have are valid in today's technology and today's programming techniques and job roles.

So that's the point of view we were approaching [the recertification] from. [As for the recertification process itself], we wanted to make it as simple as possible for our candidates, and make it cost-effective for them. We looked at things like the term of certification, and as we talked to our [certification program] colleagues at Cisco and Microsoft and Oracle and IBM, it seemed like two years was the de facto standard for duration for certifications of that nature.

That was one determination point. The other was, 'How can we price this so that it's not a liability for either Sun or the candidate to maintain their certification?' And that's how we arrived at the $100 cost. That's almost a loss leader for us…I can't say there's much profit in there. I've seen some feedback on some of the Web sites that people see recertification programs as just another way for [certification program vendors] to gouge members of the IT community, and that's not the case with Sun. We wanted to [set] it at a point where it wasn't punitive for anyone…

And the $100 is the price that you're charging for the upgrade exam, which is the only requirement for recertification, correct?

Bunzel: Yes.

Is everyone being required to recertify?

Bunzel: No. We're encouraging the community to bring their skills up to date; but as we all saw with some of the lessons learned by Microsoft with Windows NT, we don't want to be heavy-handed -- we don't want to appear big brother-ish. So we decided if someone was certified before Sept. 1, 2002, we weren't going to force the recertification on them.

Also, from a legal point of view, the candidate agreement [people who were certified before this policy came into effect] signed doesn't have any stipulations about durations, recertification or anything like that. We made the determination that we would let the employers and the industry and the individuals themselves made the determination about their recertification.

A year ago, the program was considering recertification and adaptive testing. Recertification is obviously a go. What about adaptive exams?

Bunzel: [With] adaptive exams, especially in some of the Asian countries, some individuals find them very offensive, particularly when they're not well prepared. After potentially 15 questions, the system tells them that they've failed. The feedback that we've received is that because of the culture and importance placed on testing [in these regions], the morale and loss of face issues that we would encounter would more likely defeat the purpose of having an adaptive exam.

…They're more expensive to develop as well, and they take more time. If there's any direction we're going in…[it's that we're] putting more emphasis on performance-oriented testing…We're researching simulation systems, and looking at how we can incorporate simulations into our exams.

When would be the earliest such simulations might appear on Sun certification exams?

Bunzel: It's early in the process. We have not seen a bulletproof engine yet that will operate in the environments that we have to work in. And one of the things you have to ensure when you're rolling out something like this is that it has to be 100-percent reliable. It has to be able to give the same image and results no matter what the student throws at it.

Quite frankly, [the current simulation systems] aren't quite there yet. Can I say we'd roll something out this year? Absolutely not. Will you see it in 2003? There's a good chance. But at this point, unless I feel totally confident, I'm not going to roll it out.

Earlier this year, you renamed your iPlanet certification Sun ONE Application Server, and you've also released another Sun ONE certification, Directory Server 5.x. What type of response have you had to these certifications so far?

Bunzel: The Sun ONE App Server -- that's been sort of slow going. We haven't seen the type of take up that we were hoping to see. On the other hand, with the Directory Server certification, we had an extremely good response when we went to beta, and early on it looks like we're seeing a nice flow of people coming in. The Directory Server courses that we teach at our Education Centers are some of our more popular courses, so we expect to see a nice kind of ramp [up]…as this exam develops some traction and gets better known out in the field and [among] employers.

You've just released your Solaris 9 exams. This is one certification that you've always made different versions available for…

Bunzel: Correct. And we've had upgrade exams for it.

But the upgrades/recertification weren't required then, correct?

Bunzel: Yes, it was not required, but we've always had it.

And these upgrade exams are out now…Is there anything you want to share with our readers about the Solaris 9 exams in general?

Bunzel: I'm very proud of this release. We had 12 subject matter experts working on these exams. We virtually started with a blank piece of paper -- went back [and] looked at our assessment data and built our job role profile and test objectives up from scratch. I feel more than ever that these exams really represent what someone needs to know to be a system admin or network administrator for Solaris 9. We had a large beta group -- between 400 and 500 people -- taking the exams. We got great feedback, and the feedback that we've gotten early on from people who've taken the test out in the field is very good. I think that from a quality point of view and an accuracy point of view and a validation point of view, we've notched the bar up with these exams.

How long do you plan to keep the Solaris 8 track exams around?

Bunzel: We actually have 7 and 8 out, and right now we're watching the volumes. Solaris 7 is still extremely popular in Asia, and so until we see that our volumes have fallen below a threshold of a couple of hundred a year, we probably won't obsolete it.

What gets somewhat tricky is if you've gotten Solaris 8 certified and two years pass, can you go back and certify again [on that same version]? The answer is yes. …We have an upgrade exam in place so that if someone doesn't want to upgrade to the next level but they want to maintain their certification, they can do so. The phenomena that we see from time to time is that the bigger the company, the more likely they are to be slower about upgrading to the latest and greatest system. So in some cases, although Solaris 9 is out, the administrators are working on a Solaris 8 environment, and two years from now they may still be working in that environment. It will be up to them whether they want to keep their current certification valid or move themselves up to the next level.

Either way, it's still only one upgrade exam, correct?

Bunzel: That's correct.

Last time we talked, you had said that you were thinking about adding more certifications to the Sun ONE track. Have you made any decisions about this yet?

Bunzel: We're looking at the viability of a Web services certification, although the challenge that we have right now is that while the industry treats Web services as one [area], it's actually very broad and ill-defined.

At some point, I'm confident that we will [add this track]. It may be more of a Web services "umbrella" certification with different elements underneath. We're still in the discovery stage to figure out what that might be and to find out what our customers want and what the industry really requires.

You just updated the SCJP exam to version 1.4. What's the update status for your other Java certifications?

Bunzel: Developer (SCJD) is in beta [for 1.4]. Because this is a performance-based exam with an essay and a programming assignment associated with it, it takes much longer to go through the beta process…people are actually writing Java programs based on an assignment that we give them. This should be out in the November/December time frame.

[1.4 Web Component Developer] is scheduled for calendar 2003. I don't have a specific date right now. Architect will be out early next year.

Are there any major changes that candidates should be aware of? Particularly regarding SCJD and SCJA -- will you be keeping the same structure?

Bunzel: Pretty much. Regarding Developer and Architect, the versions that are currently in place, they were more or less versions 1.0. We learned a lot when we did this on how you can deliver a performance-based exam to people remotely. We are taking some steps to enhance the security of the exams, for both Developer and Architect.

One of our biggest challenges, especially when it comes to the Java certifications, is piracy, of people swapping information…We're trying to test individuals' knowledge and skills; however, because of the whole Internet community out there, in many cases, if someone gets stuck, they can talk to a guy and say, "Hey, let me see the code from your exam." …We're taking some steps to increase the variations among the assignments to try to minimize that.

Any new certifications you're planning on releasing?

Bunzel: We are in the development stage of our Solaris security exam. It's all about hardening Solaris as an operating system.

What will be the name of the certification?

Bunzel: If I were to take a guess right now, I would speculate Sun Certified [laugh]…I can't speculate. Sorry.

Will it only be for Solaris 9? When will it be released?

Bunzel: Yes, only for 9. It will probably be released in spring 2003.

Are you going to be releasing any other security-related certifications?

Bunzel: We haven't gone beyond the talking stage, but we're looking very hard at this. …[We] want to see where the best fit is.

You've added a lot of certifications over the past year. Do you think there's a point where you could have too many? Especially considering all the titles out there -- is the industry hitting a point where there are too many certifications in general? How do you balance your offerings with everything that's out there?

Bunzel: That's the $5 million question: How many certifications? I think it's ultimately going to be determined by the employers and how they value certifications.

If you look at the breadth o f technology out there, there really aren't that many certifications.

…People know that there's a limit to the number of certifications one person can obtain and maintain. What that limit is really depends on an individual and [his or her] role within the company.

What about the exam development costs for Sun? Doesn't that play a factor in the number of certifications that you release?

Bunzel: There is a cost to developing exams. However, if you look at what it costs for companies to answer the phone in their support departments, things come back into perspective.

For example, at a company that I worked for previously…every time the phone rang in support, it cost the company about $500 to handle that call. Obviously, some of the calls were short, some of the calls were long, but on average the calls cost about $500.

We found out if the support engineer was talking with someone who was certified, the call duration was much shorter, customer satisfaction rose, etc. We also found that people who were certified within the support department tended to answer 20 percent more calls on a daily basis.

If you look at it [certification exam development] on a cost basis, yes, it is expensive to develop certifications, but there's a benefit to the company -- Sun, its partners and its customers -- to have qualified people working on products.

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